I was trying to work out the other day what is going on with the Macedonian naming dispute. I remember last year when I went to Greece that the guidebook said never to mention the Republic of Macedonia to a Greek person under any circumstances, and I couldn’t understand what made them so angry. Now, it seems, Greece will veto Macedonian accession to the EU and NATO if it doesn’t change its name.
I remember a lecturer of mine saying that ancient Macedonia is mostly in the Greek province of Macedonia, but a little bit in the Republic of Macedonia. I’ve been looking through maps on Wikipedia, and I really can’t make head nor tail of it. First of all – which “ancient Macedonia” are we talking about? The kingdom of Philip of Macedon? Before or after he invaded Greece? Or the Roman province of Macedonia? Or the satrapy of Macedonia? All of these are very different in size – the Roman province, for example, looks massive. Then there’s also, apparently, a loosely-defined “geographical area of Macedonia” (as though it were, say, the Balkans), which is different again.
My opinion, really, is that Greece should calm down. They say that the name shows that Macedonia has plans to invade Greek territory – in response, Macedonia have changed their constitution to specify no territorial aspiration against any neighbour; they have also changed their flag in order to try to placate Greece. Greece, however, claims that the slavic Macedonia are making claims to another country’s cultural heritage to which they have no right.
Now, it may just be me, but I think that Greece has an awful lot more cultural heritage available than Macedonia – can they not share a little bit? All Macedonia seems to have left is a name which connects them with a glorious figure in history, and I don’t think there’s anything really threatening in that.
From a Classics point of view, I find it quite funny that Greece is so insistent that Philip of Macedon and Alexander the Great were Greek historical figures, and are part of the Greek cultural history. Although the ancient Macedonians spoke a form of Greek, they were not considered truly Greek by other Greek-speakers. Philip himself was called a philhellene by the Athenians, that is, a foreign lover of Greekness. When he took over the other states and cities, he was treated as a foreign invading power, not a great kind uniting the Greek peoples. Now that he is a great figure of history, of course, Greece won’t share him with anyone else.
Edited 04/04/08: I’ve closed comments on this post now, because sorting through the abusive comments was getting pretty annoying. My apologies to those who have sensible input to make – please let me know if you write about it elsewhere.
March 16, 2008 at 10:13 am
It is a well documented fact that Macedonia has always been Greek.
Herodotus Book IX ,45,(Kalliopi)
(Alexander the Great of Macedonia speaking to Greeks)
Men of Athens, that which I am about to say I trust to your honour; and I charge you to keep it secret from all excepting Pausanias, if you would not bring me to destruction. Had I not greatly at heart the common welfare of Greece, I should not have come to tell you; but I am myself a Greek by descent, and I would not willingly see Greece exchange freedom for slavery. Know then that Mardonius and his army cannot obtain favourable omens;”
On the other hand, these people who now occupy a portion of the land that was part of Macedonia and who are of slavic ancestry, having arrived here around 600 AD, do not identify themselves as Greeks and rightly so. I quote from their “historical” sources which go back as far as the mid 20th century “We will fight with Greeks because they are our only historic and age old enemies.”
As anyone can clearly see, these are two completely different attitudes. And that is where the problem begins. Their hatred for anything Greek they are entitled to keep and nurture if that is what they wish. But they will not be allowed to forge history and turn black into white.
It is true that I large portion of the world does not give a damn about all these things and cosiders the matter in a simplistic manner of the type you described “Greece has an awful lot more cultural heritage available than Macedonia – can they not share a little bit?”
The answer is “No” we cannot share it because it is not ours to share.
March 16, 2008 at 2:48 pm
To be honest, I was deliberately being rather provocative when I said that to see if anyone would explain it to me.
What I still don’t understand is where exactly “ancient” Macedonia was – the maps seem to change depending on the point of view of the person producing them, but perhaps that’s inevitable.
You’re right, most people do have a very simplified point of view on this issue, but that’s because the two sides seem so polarised that it’s quite hard to understand. There must be some middle ground somewhere, but neither side seems willing to admit any – this is what I’m trying to work out.
With the Greek/Slavic thing – yes, I’m aware the people of the Republic of Macedonia are Slavic, and don’t claim to be Greek. Thank you also for your quote (though I’m a bit confused about it – Herodotus died in around 425 BCE, about 75 years before the birth of Alexander the Great in 356, so how did he write about him?). The person who told me that the Athenians in particular did not consider Philip to be fully Greek was Paul Cartledge – I’ve checked my notes and he doesn’t provide a source, but I’m sure you could take it up with him.
March 16, 2008 at 3:15 pm
The dispute over the name of Macedonia began in 1946 when the People’s Republic of Macedonia was established as part of Yugoslavia and escalated when the republic announced independence in 1991.
Greece has demonstrated its desire to reach a solution that will lead to the full normalisation of bilateral relations, facilitate the course of its neighbour towards the Euro-Atlantic institutions, and consolidate stability and cooperation in Balkan region.
BUT
Yet, FYROM continues to provoke Greece, usurping history which has been Hellenic for thousands of years, while FYROM refuses to negotiate in good faith over the name issue. Unfortunately, actions over the years such as distortion of geographic maps, naming its airport “Alexander the Great,” revisionist textbooks in schools, and inflammatory comments by top government officials, encourages new generations in FYROM to cultivate hostile sentiments against Greece. Further, this continuing systematic government policy will hinder FYROM’s accession to both the EU and NATO. This is the real threat to stability in the Balkans, to the detriment of NATO or EU . interests.
Without a mutually acceptable solution, there can be no relations like allies; there can be no invitation to the neighbouring country for participation in the same alliance.
Some thinks as about your historical quotes.
Thucydides (II 99) defined ancient Macedonia as the area extending to the eastw as far as the lands of mountain Paggaion, east of river Strymon, to the south to the Thermaikos Bay, Chalcidice, river Pineios (the border with Thessaly) and the Kambounia mountains, to the north up to (including) the city of Pella, south of the lands of Paeonians, and to the west to the mountains (Pindos, Tymfe etc) that separate Macedonia from Epeiros and ancient Illyria (today’s Albania). Macedonia, as defined by Thucydides, coincides with the region of Macedonia of modern Greece minus some lands of the Chalcidice prefecture.
Philip never names as Philhellene but as LEADER (Hegemon) of the United Greeks.
The word Philhellene has its modern meaning (= a foreign friend of Greekness) only after renaissance and especially after Greek Independence war.Plato[Republic 5.470c] said…
“Greeks, however, we shall say, are still by nature the friends of Greeks when they act in this way”
March 16, 2008 at 3:37 pm
I see your point… but basically, I find it really hard to judge how hostile the Republic of Macedonia is actually being. Their politicians, as quoted by the BBC, do not seem that hostile at all, but of course they wouldn’t want to seem so.
As for philhellene: I agree that it more recently had a separate meaning as “supporter of Greek independence”, but as “an admirer of the Greeks/Greek culture” it is an ancient word, used by Herodotus and Plato, according to my Greek dictionary (Liddell and Scott).
I still have a problem with Philip and Alexander as leaders of the Greek world (though of course they came to be seen as such) when they were, initially at least, an invading foreign power. Just because they spoke Greek does not mean they didn’t systematically invade foreign city-states. Had the Athenians invaded the rest of Greece, they too would have been foreign invaders – Greece did not, as I understand it, have such a unified identity at that time that Philip’s invasion was seen as a positive thing.
March 17, 2008 at 4:45 pm
I must say that Greece has to take a chill pill on this one.
First, the argument that Macedonia’s claim of a “Republic” implies some sort of territorial claim against Greece’s Macedonia is friggin ridiculous. Since the 40’s, the “Republic of Macedonia” existed (which started out as a member of Yugoslavia). Greece fails to mention that it named the province “Macedonia” in 1989. Greece did its own good job in dispossessing its own Macedonian minority. (On another note, have you ever been to Greece and had to drive to Macedonia. Did you ever try to find the sign for Skopje? It’s about the size of a baseball card).
Next, Macedonia is certainly not trying to steal the history of the Greeks. According to the Greeks, since Macedonians are a Slavic people, they have no right to use the name of the country belonging to Alexander the Great. This is certainly a selective view of events! After all, the Ancient Greeks viewed the Macedonians as non-Greek barbarians!!!
In the end, this whole battle Greece is waging shows what many already know: Greece has not evolved like other countries in the EU into a progressive post-nationalist country. It’s still stuck in the past.
March 19, 2008 at 1:32 am
akritas:
“…revisionist textbooks in schools, and inflammatory comments by top government officials, encourages NEW GENERATIONS in FYROM to cultivate hostile sentiments against Greece”
The two key here is “NEW GENERATIONS”. But from which country? You could easily swap FYROM and Greece in the above quote.
as Mr Cheeseburger 9000 says:
“Greece fails to mention that it named the province “Macedonia” in 1989.”
In fact the word “Macedonia” was not being used by Greeks to describe any region of Greece until it became clear that Macedonia would break away from Yugoslavia.
I would like to hear from OLDER GENERATION Greeks, i.e., those born between 1930 and 1970. Those that were old enough to remember and see the change in Greek policy. Why was it a taboo to use the word Macedonia when they were growing up, and how do they feel about the current craze to rename everything in Northern Greece?
March 19, 2008 at 11:28 am
I’m really intrigued by the fact that this is so recent a phenomena – I hope older Greeks reading this will weigh in, as zeddy says.
To those whose comments have been deleted, I’d just like to make it clear that I delete comments which:
a) I cannot make sense of,
b) Contain unjustified insults or hate speech against either side or against me, or
c) Take this discussion as ideological, racial or religious.
I’ve tried to keep a more or less even number of comments from each side, but this depends on what kind of comments I receive. My purpose was to promote an academic debate on a topic I am interested in, and more comments are very much welcome.
March 20, 2008 at 5:26 am
Chronology of Greece’s Rule in Aegean Macedonia:
http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/62/419.html
Comment edited by thula: Thanks for this – it looks interesting, but I didn’t think it was necessary to reproduce the whole chronology here! Thank you for the link, though.
March 20, 2008 at 5:06 pm
Another thing I would like to add is the following. Many seem to be unaware of the Interim Accord signed in 1995 between Greece and Macedonia. Section “C” in the agreement says that Greece will not object the application or membership of Macedonia in any international, multilateral or regional organizations. (http://www.hri.org/docs/fyrom/95-27866.html#C) Placing a veto on Macedonia’s entry into NATO would violate this agreement which was the cause of the lift of the embargo and the cause to enter into negotiations regarding the “name dispute” and try to find a solution. By breaking the agreement Greece would be putting a stop to good bilateral relationship and potentially make the situation in the Balkans worse than it already is. (as mentioned in the latest article in the economist http://www.economist.com/world/europe/displaystory.cfm?story_id=10879850)
March 21, 2008 at 2:04 pm
Thank you for your post. It’s always interesting reading opinions from a third party.
What is perhaps seldom mentioned is the Peace Treaty of Bucharest from 1913 which followed the Balkan Wars. After the treaty, Macedonia was partiioned among its neighbours (Serbia, Bulgaria, Albania and Greece) from where Greece got the largest part (or 51% of the territory). After that, opressive measures by the Greek government followed against the ethnic Macedonians living there. Many were forced to flee their homes, and even today the survivors and their children cannot return to their places of birth unless they declare themselves as “Greek” (something they are not).
In 1991 the part of Macedonia which was given to Serbia after the Treaty of Bucharest gained its independence from Yugoslavia after a held referendum.
So, when looking at this entire name issue, it’s not just the ancient history that should be considered, but also the history from later periods.
March 22, 2008 at 3:59 pm
Good post.
The extreme nationalist Greeks posting here have little to no historical knowledge. The Macedonians were not Greeks as they had a kingdom instead of “Greek democracy”. They invaded Greece. The Greeks hated them and the orator Demosthenes is proof of this.
March 22, 2008 at 8:18 pm
The question I would like to set forth to the citizens of this region which is named FYROM by the UN but Macedonia by a great number of countries around the world is this:
Is true or not that your successive governments during these past 15 years have all a common policy of detaining in jail without formal charges all civilians questioning their stance on this Macedonia naming issue and only allowing them to be reunited with their families after they have signed a document saying that they are Macedonians and not Greeks?
And is not true that your country has to answer on this issue to the European Human Rights Court next month?
March 29, 2008 at 9:05 pm
To extreme ellas nationalist calling himself Makedonec:
It is not true.
About European Human Rights Court issues, you should see their reports of greece: the only balkan state without minorities. And do yourself a favor, make a decision. Are you:
1.macedonas
2.greek
3.ellada
It is well documented fact that Macedonija has NEVER been part of Greece.
Those so-called modern Greeks forgot that Filip conquered territory of ancient greek cities.
They never ever got COUNTRY prior to 1830’s when they got their king (danish prince) who got them a flag, and since then they are a country. If Macedonija was greek territory why then they didn’t liberate it in 1832 with the rest of their territories when they got their independence? You can also check Greek maps prior to 1989 and you will NOT find MACEDONIJA only Northern Greece.So Macedonija is greek since R.MAKEDONIJA gain independence from Yugoslavija?
March 31, 2008 at 2:45 pm
You can go on and on and on and on with arguments from both sides and the problem will still be there, affecting the life of ordinary citizens. The base for finding the solution lies in the political elite and the various opinion leaders embracing values such mutual respect, trust, cultural exchange. The current level of knowledge by the general public on the first neighbour culture/history just do not give any confidence in resolving the dispute.
April 1, 2008 at 7:23 am
I have so many greek friends and i don’t blame the greek people. Simply they are mislead by their governament who uses issues like this to take away their attention from the real domestic problems! The truth is that Greece is not Democratic country. They can not accept the facts! And of course i blame the Great powers like U.K, France…with their blessing was created the state of Greece, for their own interest in the Mediterranian. The League of Nations closed their eyes on the Greek atrocities between the first and second world wars when over a milion Macedonians were displaced and murdered. 95 years later, we are still waiting for an appology! And what we get in return?! Blackmail!
It is time to shake hands and forget the past. It is 21 century! We dont wanna be the Palestinians in Europe or New IRA.
We are ready to forgive you. Just say sorry! Please!?